Time to do a cheerleader high kick!
AND STOP BEING SUCH AN EGOTESTICLED PRICK!! As much as Cher is an evil murdering cheating bastard, he is still stronger than you! Just let your friends help take the bastard down, then you can all celebrate, instead of allowing him to kill one or more while you are distracted and being ‘honourable’!!
No, Sark should totally say it’s his fight. Now, his friends should ignore it, help to take the bastard down when he’s focusing on Sark and apologize for it later.
Seconded, early in the fight he admitted that his enemy was stronger, but said that all he had to do was get them mad enough that they would forget to hide their cheating. Now he seems to be forgetting that and wants to try to beat the magically boosted and stronger enemy who should have no trouble killing him. I realize that there is a long tradition in comics that the hero has to be stupid, but this seems overkill.
That really isn’t how it works, guys. The fight is Cherek vs. Sark. The mean guy’s is only stronger because of his dragon magic. Sark has already bested him twice. Cherek is already losing the will to be the Bad Dragon’s puppet. How can Sark be champion if others helped him win? Come on! He’s fighting for the rules, not just by the rules. Sark has to prove himself worthy. You can’t accuse Cherek of cheating, if you cheat also.
The fight ended when Cherek openly and blatantly cheated
This isn’t some petty chest-beating display of who has the bigger meat-sceptre to rule the clans, this about removing a very toxic element of the green gene-pool
Yep. Sark inflicted an incapacitating wound on Cherek. Cherek had three options:
1) Yielding (= end fight by Sark victory by yielding)
2) Not yielding, honorably (a.k.a. “death before dishonor”, forcing Sark to coup-de-grace him) (= end fight by Sark victory by K.O., either “Knocked Out” or “Killed Orc”)
and finally
3) Not yielding, DIShonorably (healing by magic and forcing us all to quote Mrs. Addams on those pastel wings and claws) (= end fight by Sark victory by PLoD disqualification).
Doublegee, good analysis of how Sark thinks. He is a Tecnico, after all.
Of course, he can find that everyorc else thinks “Chieftain Sark, you ALREADY fought and won FOR and BY the rules. This is no longer part of the ocntest to be chieftain – this is the chieftain’s (by that be mean YOUR) bodyguards removing a would-be-murdered from your presence. Chieftain.”
Further, this isn’t simply about Cherek being proved a cheater and Sark winning by default; after all even if Cherek is a cheater, proving it doesn’t necessarily make Sark champion, others may step up to compete. Sark is an avatar, a player, so beating Cherek, even though he is cheating is a significant part of Sark’s game thread (probably lots of XP as well) and doing that should make his leadership of the Orc clans undisputed. That’s how I see it anyway.
True, except for a single detail that HAS been mentioned in a previous comic and nobody seems to remember: there were no further challengers willing to step in. Sark was explicitly LITERALLY the last one.
Why do I have this funny feeling that Sark is going to give Cherek a beatdown, then casually say something like “You obviously didn’t listen closely enough to your Elders. The Orcs served Dragons, yes. But we served Dragons as the main course in feasts. Those overgrown lizards are a delicacy.”
Sorry, but no, Cherek is NOT defeated. He is still standing. So, unless the Orc ‘referee’ steps up and says “Sark, you are the winner!” (which he hasn’t so far), the fight is still on, until one or the other is decisively defeated, probably (judging by the track record so far) by death. Yes, Sark is an avatar like Bree/Jen, but he also has to prove himself, to his dead father, to his younger schoolboy self, to his sister, even perhaps to Bree. In Mr Hunter’s universe, that is his allotted role in the story, guys, like it or not. Heroes don’t walk away with the job unfinished. Although maybe someone taking that dragon scale out (maybe one of the two spear-holders) might help! My thinking is maybe Cherek actually might want death now. He ain’t going to magic into being a good guy.
Cherek WAS defeated. He WAS no longer standing – nor able to. Shattered spine and all that. THEN he used magic to heal himself and go one winged angel (but with two winged pastels) on Sark, at which point he was instantly disqualified (and yes, he HAS been told that he IS disqualified – by basically everyone, including the – let’s call it referee, in 611). Followed by other clans joining in decrying him (in 612), and that folloerd by shamans and fighters of several clans actually entering the ring to chastise him for cheating (something you only do AFTER someone has been deemed a loser cheater) here in 613. So, yes. At this point, Sark HAS officially (not just “de facto”) won the tournment. No ammount of semantics may change that.
All that is missing is to know who will survive the unrelated fight they have here, where Chieftain Sark wants to personally beat the everloving crap of the cheating bastard who murdered his father’s cousin Renata and several other Orcish chieftains.
I agree with most of this, but the tournament isn’t over, whether Cherek is defeated or not. Someone else could step in to challenge Sark. If Sark beats Cherek, even though Cherek is cheating, that should be sufficient for the ref/umpire to declare the tournament ended and Sark leader.
The problem with this argument, oh, he’s a cheater, boo, he’s disqualified, etc., is Cherek isn’t even playing by the rules, never was. He used his dragon magic – the claws, etc., to cheat in all the previous fights. He has one objective, to win, and while he is still standing, fight to win. In geopolitical terms, there is no unconditional surrender. Stark has to beat the dragon by his own skills and ability, not the magical help of others. “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.” It’s Sark’s fight only. That’s the way it has to be.
You miss the point. It’s not a matter of “oh, good chap, it seems you are out, best luck next year”. Because the tournament was not a sport – was a political thing to choose who will the orcs follow, which is what Cherek wanted. He didn’t want to “win” (to quote you); he wanted to lead all the orcs (into slavitude for the lizard, but that’s not actually important here). The point is that, as of this moment, Cherek is no longer an option to lead the orcs – he even said it himself! The orcs won’t follow him, period. Which does count as defeat (total defeat at that), because it has royally screwed his plans, beyond any posibility of salvation. Because as of this point, “Thunderlord” (never gonna live that down) is THE one the orcs WILL follow. Because defeat is not a matter of who lives and who dies – is a matter of who gets what they want and who doesn’t. As many who won to the cost of their lives could be an example of.
And THEN, and AFTER that, there’s the unrelated matter of Sark (and every single other orc in sight) wishing to kill him where he stands. Which is, as of this comic, an unrelated matter to the defeat he has already suffered. Is now a matter of who lives and who dies, not a matter of who is defeated. Because if Cherek kills Sark, Arka, Sha’ni, Chasta and the others will kill Cherek. Cherek no longer has any “victory” option left. At this point, it doesn’t matter whether Sark curbstomps Cherek with or without help for “geopolitic” purposes. It only matters for two things: Sark’s personal sense of honor, and, more importantly…
Again the “Cherek has an objective, to win” line. Cherek’s objective was NEVER to “win”; he even refered to the tournament as “game” (comic 607). What he (explicitly stated, in 608 and 611) wanted was to get the orcs to join his army – which as of 612 is no longer an option. He has already been defeated. Even if he is still, in fact, standing, he has been served an utter, humilliating defeat.
Friendly reminder that what “victory” and “defeat” mean are, “have you managed to get what you wanted, or have you been prevented for it”?
And for the same, Sark has already aciheved victory, as his stated objective (609) was to expose Cherek (achieved in 610) AND to prevent him to get control of his clan (stated in 679, achieved in 612)
Now it’s just a matter of whether either of them survives or not Sark’s victory. (And yes, history AND fiction are full of people not surviving their own victories. Sadly. Look at my name for an example). Because right now, they both are ROYALLY pissed at each other. This is no longer a matter of victory or defeat. This is… personal.
Ooops. Sark says that he wants to protect his clan in 579, not in 679. Obvious typo is obvious. Sadly, I have no magical powers with which to see in the future comics not yet made, or else I would point spoilers of exactly when we’re gonna see *REDACTED*
Agreed, for the purposes of the storyline Sark can’t simply say “He cheated, I win by default”, he may then govern but he wouldn’t truly lead; Cherek has to be banished (either by defeat or death). Apart from that, as you rightly say, “Now it’s personal”!
Interesting detail: the more Cherek pulls on his patron’s magic, the more his face is warping. If those tusks keep growing, they’re going to start blocking his vision.
You’re applying your logic to what is a primitive barbarian world where leaders have to, not only be strong, but always appear to be strong. A leader that needs support from others is thought of as weak. Different logic.
Subotai (Gengis Khan general, and far better warrior, personally, that Temujin himself) disagrees with you. Being able to command the respect of followers is part of a leader’s strength even in “primitive”, “barbarian” (I strongly prefer the termns “tribal”, “clan-centric” and/or “following endemic warfare”) societies. Which are far more “civilized” than many believe to be.
Very much this. A leader is one who can inspire loyalty. In many (most?) tribal/clan societies it would typically not be the war leader. And a war leader wouldn’t necessarily be the biggest and strongest. Most cunning, most inspiring, and best connected were typically more important.
Was replying to doublegee2022 🙂
A great leader isn’t always the strongest, or even the smartest or bravest or most of the other ‘ests’ one can think of, they are just someone others are willing to follow
Time to do a cheerleader high kick!
AND STOP BEING SUCH AN EGOTESTICLED PRICK!! As much as Cher is an evil murdering cheating bastard, he is still stronger than you! Just let your friends help take the bastard down, then you can all celebrate, instead of allowing him to kill one or more while you are distracted and being ‘honourable’!!
Absolutely! 🙂
I agree.
No, Sark should totally say it’s his fight. Now, his friends should ignore it, help to take the bastard down when he’s focusing on Sark and apologize for it later.
HKMaly: Ah, a man of culture…
Or, at the least, buff Sark like mad. That would balance the fight out (because dragon-slave is buffed by an outside actor).
Seconded, early in the fight he admitted that his enemy was stronger, but said that all he had to do was get them mad enough that they would forget to hide their cheating. Now he seems to be forgetting that and wants to try to beat the magically boosted and stronger enemy who should have no trouble killing him. I realize that there is a long tradition in comics that the hero has to be stupid, but this seems overkill.
Orcs. Nuff said.
That really isn’t how it works, guys. The fight is Cherek vs. Sark. The mean guy’s is only stronger because of his dragon magic. Sark has already bested him twice. Cherek is already losing the will to be the Bad Dragon’s puppet. How can Sark be champion if others helped him win? Come on! He’s fighting for the rules, not just by the rules. Sark has to prove himself worthy. You can’t accuse Cherek of cheating, if you cheat also.
The fight ended when Cherek openly and blatantly cheated
This isn’t some petty chest-beating display of who has the bigger meat-sceptre to rule the clans, this about removing a very toxic element of the green gene-pool
Not only did the fight ended. I’m pretty sure that it ended AND Sark won it when Cherek openly and blatantly cheated.
Yep. Sark inflicted an incapacitating wound on Cherek. Cherek had three options:
1) Yielding (= end fight by Sark victory by yielding)
2) Not yielding, honorably (a.k.a. “death before dishonor”, forcing Sark to coup-de-grace him) (= end fight by Sark victory by K.O., either “Knocked Out” or “Killed Orc”)
and finally
3) Not yielding, DIShonorably (healing by magic and forcing us all to quote Mrs. Addams on those pastel wings and claws) (= end fight by Sark victory by PLoD disqualification).
He went for option 3, as we know.
Doublegee, good analysis of how Sark thinks. He is a Tecnico, after all.
Of course, he can find that everyorc else thinks “Chieftain Sark, you ALREADY fought and won FOR and BY the rules. This is no longer part of the ocntest to be chieftain – this is the chieftain’s (by that be mean YOUR) bodyguards removing a would-be-murdered from your presence. Chieftain.”
Further, this isn’t simply about Cherek being proved a cheater and Sark winning by default; after all even if Cherek is a cheater, proving it doesn’t necessarily make Sark champion, others may step up to compete. Sark is an avatar, a player, so beating Cherek, even though he is cheating is a significant part of Sark’s game thread (probably lots of XP as well) and doing that should make his leadership of the Orc clans undisputed. That’s how I see it anyway.
True, except for a single detail that HAS been mentioned in a previous comic and nobody seems to remember: there were no further challengers willing to step in. Sark was explicitly LITERALLY the last one.
Why do I have this funny feeling that Sark is going to give Cherek a beatdown, then casually say something like “You obviously didn’t listen closely enough to your Elders. The Orcs served Dragons, yes. But we served Dragons as the main course in feasts. Those overgrown lizards are a delicacy.”
He’s Sark, not Schlock
Sorry, but no, Cherek is NOT defeated. He is still standing. So, unless the Orc ‘referee’ steps up and says “Sark, you are the winner!” (which he hasn’t so far), the fight is still on, until one or the other is decisively defeated, probably (judging by the track record so far) by death. Yes, Sark is an avatar like Bree/Jen, but he also has to prove himself, to his dead father, to his younger schoolboy self, to his sister, even perhaps to Bree. In Mr Hunter’s universe, that is his allotted role in the story, guys, like it or not. Heroes don’t walk away with the job unfinished. Although maybe someone taking that dragon scale out (maybe one of the two spear-holders) might help! My thinking is maybe Cherek actually might want death now. He ain’t going to magic into being a good guy.
Cherek WAS defeated. He WAS no longer standing – nor able to. Shattered spine and all that. THEN he used magic to heal himself and go one winged angel (but with two winged pastels) on Sark, at which point he was instantly disqualified (and yes, he HAS been told that he IS disqualified – by basically everyone, including the – let’s call it referee, in 611). Followed by other clans joining in decrying him (in 612), and that folloerd by shamans and fighters of several clans actually entering the ring to chastise him for cheating (something you only do AFTER someone has been deemed a loser cheater) here in 613. So, yes. At this point, Sark HAS officially (not just “de facto”) won the tournment. No ammount of semantics may change that.
All that is missing is to know who will survive the unrelated fight they have here, where Chieftain Sark wants to personally beat the everloving crap of the cheating bastard who murdered his father’s cousin Renata and several other Orcish chieftains.
I agree with most of this, but the tournament isn’t over, whether Cherek is defeated or not. Someone else could step in to challenge Sark. If Sark beats Cherek, even though Cherek is cheating, that should be sufficient for the ref/umpire to declare the tournament ended and Sark leader.
Even if he tournament isn’t over, this fight is
As erana explained: Cher lost by all aspects of the rules… until he cheated by using magic to heal and transform himself
The problem with this argument, oh, he’s a cheater, boo, he’s disqualified, etc., is Cherek isn’t even playing by the rules, never was. He used his dragon magic – the claws, etc., to cheat in all the previous fights. He has one objective, to win, and while he is still standing, fight to win. In geopolitical terms, there is no unconditional surrender. Stark has to beat the dragon by his own skills and ability, not the magical help of others. “A man’s gotta do what a man’s gotta do.” It’s Sark’s fight only. That’s the way it has to be.
You miss the point. It’s not a matter of “oh, good chap, it seems you are out, best luck next year”. Because the tournament was not a sport – was a political thing to choose who will the orcs follow, which is what Cherek wanted. He didn’t want to “win” (to quote you); he wanted to lead all the orcs (into slavitude for the lizard, but that’s not actually important here). The point is that, as of this moment, Cherek is no longer an option to lead the orcs – he even said it himself! The orcs won’t follow him, period. Which does count as defeat (total defeat at that), because it has royally screwed his plans, beyond any posibility of salvation. Because as of this point, “Thunderlord” (never gonna live that down) is THE one the orcs WILL follow. Because defeat is not a matter of who lives and who dies – is a matter of who gets what they want and who doesn’t. As many who won to the cost of their lives could be an example of.
And THEN, and AFTER that, there’s the unrelated matter of Sark (and every single other orc in sight) wishing to kill him where he stands. Which is, as of this comic, an unrelated matter to the defeat he has already suffered. Is now a matter of who lives and who dies, not a matter of who is defeated. Because if Cherek kills Sark, Arka, Sha’ni, Chasta and the others will kill Cherek. Cherek no longer has any “victory” option left. At this point, it doesn’t matter whether Sark curbstomps Cherek with or without help for “geopolitic” purposes. It only matters for two things: Sark’s personal sense of honor, and, more importantly…
…wether he will use Santo’s finisher or not.
Again the “Cherek has an objective, to win” line. Cherek’s objective was NEVER to “win”; he even refered to the tournament as “game” (comic 607). What he (explicitly stated, in 608 and 611) wanted was to get the orcs to join his army – which as of 612 is no longer an option. He has already been defeated. Even if he is still, in fact, standing, he has been served an utter, humilliating defeat.
Friendly reminder that what “victory” and “defeat” mean are, “have you managed to get what you wanted, or have you been prevented for it”?
And for the same, Sark has already aciheved victory, as his stated objective (609) was to expose Cherek (achieved in 610) AND to prevent him to get control of his clan (stated in 679, achieved in 612)
Now it’s just a matter of whether either of them survives or not Sark’s victory. (And yes, history AND fiction are full of people not surviving their own victories. Sadly. Look at my name for an example). Because right now, they both are ROYALLY pissed at each other. This is no longer a matter of victory or defeat. This is… personal.
Ooops. Sark says that he wants to protect his clan in 579, not in 679. Obvious typo is obvious. Sadly, I have no magical powers with which to see in the future comics not yet made, or else I would point spoilers of exactly when we’re gonna see *REDACTED*
Agreed, for the purposes of the storyline Sark can’t simply say “He cheated, I win by default”, he may then govern but he wouldn’t truly lead; Cherek has to be banished (either by defeat or death). Apart from that, as you rightly say, “Now it’s personal”!
Interesting detail: the more Cherek pulls on his patron’s magic, the more his face is warping. If those tusks keep growing, they’re going to start blocking his vision.
Leaders don’t have to hog the glory, and they honor the contributions of their teams
You’re applying your logic to what is a primitive barbarian world where leaders have to, not only be strong, but always appear to be strong. A leader that needs support from others is thought of as weak. Different logic.
Subotai (Gengis Khan general, and far better warrior, personally, that Temujin himself) disagrees with you. Being able to command the respect of followers is part of a leader’s strength even in “primitive”, “barbarian” (I strongly prefer the termns “tribal”, “clan-centric” and/or “following endemic warfare”) societies. Which are far more “civilized” than many believe to be.
Very much this. A leader is one who can inspire loyalty. In many (most?) tribal/clan societies it would typically not be the war leader. And a war leader wouldn’t necessarily be the biggest and strongest. Most cunning, most inspiring, and best connected were typically more important.
If that was the case, then they wouldn’t need a ‘wiseman’ to advise them, or to have personal guards
A strong leader knows when they need to rely on others for assistance
Mate, that WAS the case. I’m not talking of an hipothetical example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subutai
Was replying to doublegee2022 🙂
A great leader isn’t always the strongest, or even the smartest or bravest or most of the other ‘ests’ one can think of, they are just someone others are willing to follow
despite all off his cheating, Cherek still hasn’t aimed for the balls.